RE: way/1350746944 (and others)

You have made a common error when saw a fairway that looked like it didn't have a proper "Feature Type" defined and decided to add the fairway tag. The hole was already properly tagged, but was part of a relation of multiple objects known as a multipolygon. Please read this short wiki where I've tried to explain what you are looking at and avoid making the mistake in the future. osm.wiki/ID_understanding_golf_course_relations Thanks.

How embarrassing. I've done thousands of these edits. I must have been lacking sleep for this edit. My apologies.

RE: way/1455348653

Please don't share the nodes of the green if you have the fairway surrounding the green. If you can't see any fringe around the green, you should make the fairway butt up to the green and share the nodes on the boundary *between* the green and fairway instead. Please read the wiki for visual examples and instructions on how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll gladly help clarify things. Thanks!

Hey Pizza,

How did you come across this tee box to make this change?

I have a biased opinion about adding both golf=tee nodes at the same time as golf=tee areas. First off, the concept of a tee node is really kind of arbitrary and nearly impossible to tell from imagery, whereas a tee box is far more likely to be visible and easily mapped. So claiming that one knows exactly at which point in the box to tee off from is specious at best. So with that, I've been deleting the tags off of the start of the golf hole when they are inside a tee area. The wiki says put the tag on the node OR the way, so that's a little justification for what I'm doing, though I agree that point could be argued.

(I kind of feel the same way about golf=pin since that is clearly wrong 99.9% of the time as the hole is moved across the green on a regular basis. But I haven't made any edits to reflect that, and don't really plan to at this time.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks. Yeah, I've been cleaning up golf courses over the last 3 years in hopes that people won't see these bad habits and spread them around farther.

Also, you are deleting a bunch of historical data in this change in order to recreate features from scratch. It's bad to lose all of that history and context when you do this, so please stop deleting and do your best to modify instead.
Thanks.

RE: way/1456745514

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for contributing to golf course mapping. We need all the help we can get.

However, there are some problems with how you're mapping and I want to make sure you correct those behaviors so they don't continue into the future.

The first problem is that you are deleting information by removing someone else's work (a completely valid fairway, for instance). This is useful data in that history of the previous hole that gets difficult to find when you erase it to draw your own elements. You should modify the nodes (add/move/delete) if you need to, but deleting the entire way is frowned upon.

One common misconception is that a fairway looks like just a "line" when it is supposed to be defined as a "fairway" and an "area". Here is a wiki article that might clear that up: osm.wiki/ID_understanding_golf_course_relations

Those fairway relations are correct and should not have parts deleted because it doesn't look right. If you are unclear, please reach out and provide examples for me to look and help explain what's going on.

Thanks!

Hi Steve,

Thanks for contributing to golf course mapping. We need all the help we can get.

However, there are some problems with how you're mapping and I want to make sure you correct those behaviors so they don't continue into the future.

The first problem is that you are deleting information by removing someone else's work (a completely valid fairway, for instance). This is useful data in that history of the previous hole that gets difficult to find when you erase it to draw your own elements. You should modify the nodes (add/move/delete) if you need to, but deleting the entire way is frowned upon.

One common misconception is that a fairway looks like just a "line" when it is supposed to be defined as a "fairway" and an "area". Here is a wiki article that might clear that up: osm.wiki/ID_understanding_golf_course_relations

Those fairway relations are correct and should not have parts deleted because it doesn't look right. If you are unclear, please reach out and provide examples for me to look and help explain what's going on.

Thanks!

RE: way/1455461105

Please don't put double nodes at the end of the hole definition. I see this once in a while and am confused as to why people are doing this. Maybe you could clear it up for me. Is some documentation (wrongly) telling you to do this?

Please see the wiki page at golf=hole for better understanding of how to map out golf=hole lines. Thanks.

please make sure golf course areas don't overlap in the future. fairways shouldn't intersect tees or greens for example.

Hi Payton,

I've reverted this changeset as there are dozen of problem edits that would take more effort to fix than to apply correctly.

There were a ton of golf objects that were sloppily overlapping other objects (fairways and tees for example). I realize these might have been done before, but you need to fix them if you're making changes.

The other big problems is that you are adding a "hole=6" tag when the correct "ref=6" tag already exists. You are also breaking up tee boxes into color tees. If you can't actually see these on the ground/imagery, you should just mark a single tee box. Yardage marker colors and distances should be put on the golf=hole object and shouldn't use the "yards" key. You shouldn't just be making stuff up. The correct tag is dist and technically should be in meters, but I believe it would be valid to say "dist:red=234 yards" on the golf=hole.

I'm happy to work with you to show you correct golf course mapping. There is also the wiki.openstreetmap.org that is full of good information on golf course tags. Or join the OSM US Slack server and discuss things in the #golf channel.

Hi Benny,

We've discussed this with you several times in the past. You are deleting valid map objects that belong to relations and are recreating the objects (fairways typically) from scratch leaving broken multipolygon definitions around.

If you continue to do this, I, and possibly others, will start reverting your hard work. Please make sure you edit existing fairways in place and stop breaking multipolygons.

If you don't understand any of this, you can find more information about multipolygons and relations at the wiki. If you still don't understand, please reach out with questions and we'll gladly help you map correctly so that the community doesn't have to clean up errors.

Thanks.

Please don't remove relations on golf courses. If you are having problems with your software (Chad's Tool perhaps?), you need to work with the developer to fix their software, not break mapping in openstreetmap.

My bad. I initially left it broken so you could see the problem but then as I was fixing other errors, I came back to it again and not realizing it was one I mentioned to you, I went ahead and fixed it again. I'll let you know if I see another example.

Thanks for getting back to me.

Another problem is when you draw the fairway and it crisscrosses over other elements (like the bunker near the green). You should share every node at the boundary between the two (if you aren't leaving a gap). Some helpful information can be gleaned from the golf_course wiki: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls

Thanks.

Hi Lothar,

Please don't delete a valid fairway like this only to recreate a nearly identical fairway moments later. It's best to keep the history of the fairway and all of its previous versions for people to review and understand why/how things change. Another problem is that you have broken the relation between the fairway and green by doing this, which causes other mappers to have to come in and clean up the error. Thanks.

RE: way/1455333590

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.

RE: way/1454481972, et al

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.

This change has been reverted. Please see previous changeset notes at changeset/170753934 for similar edits.