Hey wat,

I appreciate any work towards cleaning up golf courses, but I found a problem in your methodology. If you look at the second hole fairway, you'll see that the nodes on either side of node/4218321798 were removed from the fairway, but not the green. This leaves the two objects overlapping and setting off my Q/A checks for overlaps. I'm not sure how automated this cleanup is, or if it was just a one-time manual oversight. Just wanted to let you know. thanks.

And thanks for being responsive to changeset comments in the past maddog, we appreciate it.

RE: way/1433425782

You have made a common error when you saw a fairway that looked like it didn't have a proper "Feature Type" defined and you decided to add the fairway tag. The hole was already properly tagged, but was part of a relation of multiple objects known as a multipolygon. Please read this short wiki where I've tried to explain what you are looking at and avoid making the mistake in the future. osm.wiki/ID_understanding_golf_course_relations

Thanks.

RE: way/1054075723, et al

You have broken fairway relations with this edit. Please see the wiki at osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=ID_understanding_golf_course_relations

RE: way/1461319115, et al

When drawing golf course areas (i.e. greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways (lines) used to outline those areas must not cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. Take a look at osm.wiki/File:Golf.png for an example of the "Wrong" way to map a fairway and a green along with the right way. There are some cases where a fringe exists around a green and you should draw the fairway outline completely around a green, leaving room for the fringe. Other times, the fairway and green butt up against each other. In that case the fairway and green should share the same nodes at the boundary between the two, and every node at the boundary needs to be shared leaving no gaps. When drawing these shared nodes, editors like iD (built into openstreetmap.org) will "snap" to an existing node if you get close enough. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out. Thanks.

RE: way/1150587828

When drawing golf course areas (i.e. greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways (lines) used to outline those areas must not cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. Take a look at osm.wiki/File:Golf.png for an example of the "Wrong" way to map a fairway and a green along with the right way. There are some cases where a fringe exists around a green and you should draw the fairway outline completely around a green, leaving room for the fringe. Other times, the fairway and green butt up against each other. In that case the fairway and green should share the same nodes at the boundary between the two, and every node at the boundary needs to be shared leaving no gaps. When drawing these shared nodes, editors like iD (built into openstreetmap.org) will "snap" to an existing node if you get close enough. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out. Thanks.

Thanks.

These (4) changesets on one of the top golf courses in the country were littered with some extensive bad mapping. Some really well defined sandtraps were deleted and replaced with harsh, blocky low-node-count ways. Existing, golf course elements (with lots of history) were deleted and replaced with other elements that crossed over all sorts of other elements they shouldn't have. Multipolygons had tags duplicated on outer members since new mappers don't understand relations yet.

I've reverted all four changes and will happily work with RezGolf to get legitimate changes implemented. Rez, let's talk.

FYI, you have duplicate fairways sitting on top of each other in a couple of places on this course. Maybe you did an errant copy/paste or duplicate or something like that. Did you want to clean these up, or do you need a hand?

RE: way/1459699998

FYI, I fixed up the 12th green. If there is no fringe around the green, the fairway shouldn't surround the green, but should instead butt up next to it and share the nodes at the border of the green and fairway.

I've reverted your changes to Cypress Point as they were destructive and littered the course with duplicate course features along with contributed bad mapping practices. Please read up the golf_course wiki before making any further changes.

Some things to consider:
* Don't delete other's work. Modify it instead to preserve history
* Don't cross the lines defining feature areas (roughs, fairways, tees, greens, etc)
* Use proper multipolygons

Thanks.

RE: way/1248229983, et al

When drawing golf course areas (i.e. greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways (lines) used to outline those areas must not cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. Take a look at osm.wiki/File:Golf.png for an example of the "Wrong" way to map a fairway and a green along with the right way. There are some cases where a fringe exists around a green and you should draw the fairway outline completely around a green, leaving room for the fringe. Other times, the fairway and green butt up against each other. In that case the fairway and green should share the same nodes at the boundary between the two, and every node at the boundary needs to be shared leaving no gaps. When drawing these shared nodes, editors like iD (built into openstreetmap.org) will "snap" to an existing node if you get close enough. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out. Thanks.

RE: way/1458602858, et al

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.

This change has been reverted as it introduced too many errors onto the map (along with some needed edits I'm sure). Please do not break existing relations between fairways, greens, and roughs. And please don't create lollipops as a hack workaround proper multipolygons. Please make sure you read the wiki before proceeding with more golf course edits. Thanks.

RE: way/1457983693

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.

RE: relation/19118627

Thanks for your contributions Ben. We do appreciate them. But we need to work together as a community and when you are introducing many many errors into the map that others have to come behind you and clean up, it creates tension. Please don't get upset and tell us to "relax". You are causing more work for others and we want to help you eliminate these and make all of our lives easier and make the map cleaner.

As for the above mentioned node. It is at the boundary of a fairway and a bunker. Those two items need to share every node along that boundary and not zig-zag across each other. I see that you are using JOSM now and I commend that change. There is a feature of JOSM where you can "Follow" an existing line by sharing nodes. So if the bunker exists and you are drawing the fairway, touch the first shared node and then the next shared node to set direction. Press F once and it will extend the line to the next node in the given direction. Hold F and it will continuously extend the line until the area is closed or it comes to an intersection. Hope this helps.

RE: way/1350746944 (and others)

You have made a common error when saw a fairway that looked like it didn't have a proper "Feature Type" defined and decided to add the fairway tag. The hole was already properly tagged, but was part of a relation of multiple objects known as a multipolygon. Please read this short wiki where I've tried to explain what you are looking at and avoid making the mistake in the future. osm.wiki/ID_understanding_golf_course_relations Thanks.

How embarrassing. I've done thousands of these edits. I must have been lacking sleep for this edit. My apologies.

RE: way/1455348653

Please don't share the nodes of the green if you have the fairway surrounding the green. If you can't see any fringe around the green, you should make the fairway butt up to the green and share the nodes on the boundary *between* the green and fairway instead. Please read the wiki for visual examples and instructions on how to better map golf courses: leisure=golf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll gladly help clarify things. Thanks!

Hey Pizza,

How did you come across this tee box to make this change?

I have a biased opinion about adding both golf=tee nodes at the same time as golf=tee areas. First off, the concept of a tee node is really kind of arbitrary and nearly impossible to tell from imagery, whereas a tee box is far more likely to be visible and easily mapped. So claiming that one knows exactly at which point in the box to tee off from is specious at best. So with that, I've been deleting the tags off of the start of the golf hole when they are inside a tee area. The wiki says put the tag on the node OR the way, so that's a little justification for what I'm doing, though I agree that point could be argued.

(I kind of feel the same way about golf=pin since that is clearly wrong 99.9% of the time as the hole is moved across the green on a regular basis. But I haven't made any edits to reflect that, and don't really plan to at this time.

What are your thoughts?